What Great Tech Leaders Do Beyond Hitting the Number - 150 Episodes In

00:41I said, "Welcome back, Tully." Toy, we're three years in, mate. 150 episodes. That's crazy. Who Who knew we would have such consistency? What have you learned over these three years, 150 episodes, about what makes the best tech leaders tick? That is such that's a lot of people to think about. I think it's a mix of actually kindness is actually quite up there. The people that we get to interview into are very kind, but at the same time they're also very dedicated, very like focused on what they want to do, but also in a way they're also quite free, you know? So like it's like they hold things quite loosely. So they go after the goal, but how they get there is kind of quite open, which is quite nice. and I think they're just also quite courageous. Like one of the questions we ask around, you know, what's a big bet that you took or who took a big big bet on you? They've all taken pretty big bets and had pretty big rewards as a as a result of that. Does it surprise you then that you said that they're like they're free? I think so because I think sometimes especially when we think about sales, you've got this big number. You've got lots that you have to get, you know, but I think a lot of these people have focused on still being able to be quite free. I know that sounds a bit odd, but that's that's what really struck me quite a lot. What do you mean by free? I think it's a really good question. Free like they actually seem to like what they're doing. Yeah. Right. Like they're not weighed down by like the pressure and this kind of like they still enjoy it. They're still good family people, good friends, good partners. Like they're quite free.

02:19I think sometimes corporate can be a bit like the golden shackles, you know, the golden handcuffs, but they don't they don't feel like that. Yeah. What do you think? I agree. I know a lot of people who came up through tech sales who are not happy. they're all burned out and they're like or maybe they're trapped in environments like you say golden handcuffs where they can't get out maybe because they're like tied in by some sort of future event or maybe they just reached a level maybe the company's not growing and when I speak to them they're not happy and I think that we've managed to find so many people who just like love it and they've got through that really horrible bit which is this like being a great salesperson becoming a leader a lot of people can't hack that and they fall away and they realize actually this sucks. I'm now responsible for all these people with all their problems and I've got all this expectation and I think a lot of people never break through. But these people have gone on to like become great leaders, great leaders of leaders, maybe even founded companies, maybe written books and there's there's a joy which makes me think of Alina Alina Vandenberg. there's a joy in what they do and you don't feel the pressure like you say which I think is hard for them to achieve because it is such an incredibly pressured environment and it's changing so fast as well and I think that's what's been another theme is that they all are very adaptable. Yeah. You know new challenges come but they meet those in a certain way. And I think that back to Alina cuz I saw one of her posts like this morning and she's just like unapologetically herself.

03:54Yeah. You know, I think she posted about marketing and did you see that one? So, she posted about I think it was like satire and then it went mental in the comments and I was just watching her in the comments like look, it was sarcastic but I take the beating kind of thing like I deserve it. I'll take it. She's engaging in the comments but she's just being herself. What did she say? She said something about who's the greatest marketer you've ever known or something like that. She was like I think it's you know I didn't vote for him but you know watching how he turned around all these people and stuff like that. I think she's being very sarcastic, but people did not take it that way at all. Yeah. Yeah. But she's just being herself, you know, and that's what I see with a lot of our guests as well. They they're just themselves. Do you know what's wild? Now you've said Trump on the podcast. Oh, we're going to get shadowbanned, aren't we? You can't say one of the learns that I've got over three years. If you mentioned, you get shadow banned. You would get shadow banned. And I did it in the first two minutes. So that's if you heard a bleep, we might have mentioned someone who just changed a lake in the name of a lake. What if we think about that the adaptability piece so when you're talking about that they're really adaptable obviously like everything's changed in the last 3 years cuz when we started I guess it was like we just had GP chat GP I think barely like barely barely. Yeah. So they've had to deal with all of that. What other what do you mean by the adaptability side? So I think it's even like what you said about the move from being an IC to a sales leader that takes a lot of adapting.

05:20What you see with a lot of people they work at lots of different types of companies. So it's not always like I work in media and that's it. They they move around quite a bit. They learn new things and I think that they enjoy it and that's the other thing. So I think some of being adaptable is I can adapt but I think the really good people enjoy it. You know they see it as a bit of a challenge. they see it as a bit of a competition with adaptable because they've all had these amazing squiggly careers, you know, working loads of different types of companies. but I think they enjoy the challenge of the change. Do you another thing that comes to mind is everyone wants to be an entrepreneur nowadays, right? Everyone wants to be an entrepreneur nowadays, young kids, right? No one really wants this career and you don't imagine you're going to have a career in one company. So like that kind of adage that you'd get a good job, stay there, get promoted, they'll look after during retirement. I think that's just disappeared. But these people, it's their job to create the environment where that is true. Maybe not in one company because I don't think that really does exist anymore. but to create an environment that people really love going to work. And we both came through businesses where we were really lucky and fortunate to work with wicked leaders in great environments where we progressed and had like you know many promotions up to quite senior levels. but a lot of people don't have that exposure to good leaders. So I think the profession of leadership whilst it's I think one of the hardest things you could possibly do way harder than being an SDR which everyone says is the hardest job in sales. There's like a a responsibility that comes with that which I think you have to have that kind of like boundless energy, not getting knocked down, joy, freedom to be like someone that people get attracted to and that they want to stay with.

07:06What you what do you think about that? The environment side of what these leaders are creating. I think in some ways I think in sales it's harder to do that because I think one of the things I saw where I used to work is that you get promoted because you're technically good at what you do, right? And often what makes you technically good at sales, it's changing a bit now, but it's not traditionally like team player because the sales often a bit like a bit of a lone war. You've got to go out kill what you what etc etc. But then you've got to switch from that to now thinking about everybody else and the team and the environment that you're creating. So I think that it's actually really difficult because I think a lot of leaders in general get promoted because they're good at what they do, but being a great leader is very different to being a great IC. And I think making that switch in sales, I think, is actually really difficult. And I don't think a lot of people know that. Yeah. but that's one thing that we've noticed about our guests is that they've all made that transition really well. Not necessarily at the first try, right? Sometimes it takes a bit of time, but they're all bought into creating that environment and doing that really, really well. And that's why, you know, people follow them. That's why people want to work for them again and again and again. Here's a question for you. Of all the podcast guests we've had on, the last 150 guests Which leaders would you most love to have worked under? Oh, that's a dreadful question. That is such a tough question. Oh, it's like picking your favorite child. That's not fair. You've only got one. That's easy. Yeah. Of the 150 children.

08:41Oh, I would say the ones that come to mind are Finn. Yeah, Steven. Jacob would be interesting. Elina would be interesting. Probably gal. Okay. Yeah, let's talk about gal. Why would you have liked to have worked under a gal or with gal? Maybe a better terminology. Do you know? I think there's just something about the way that he thinks and even when like you read his posts and stuff like that, the way that he thinks through that whole sales process and solving problems and building things, it's just really it's quite different is what I would say, but I think it would be very interesting. It's I found out I only realized this after we'd met Gal. He's the same age as me. No way. And I was going interesting in my mind he's like a a different a completely different level of seniority and like gravitas gravitas.

09:43That's what it is. Gravitas which is what Ravi talked about. Yeah. But it's I go this how on earth has become that polished that successful that good and to be the same age that that I am. And it was quite humbling. I think I was I went like fair play. Yeah. Who would yours be? Who would I most love to work under? I think all those people you mentioned 100%. Okay. It would have been weird working under Jacob. I think I'd have probably got cut by now, replaced with AI. But what a learning experience. Big learning experience. But who comes to mind? I mean, think Ravi that we Yeah. recently did a podcast with the way that he thinks about things. I think what you would have learned under him in terms of your communication skills. Yeah. And question how you approach things would have been just fascinating. So I think from like maybe I'll break this down. Okay. Skills development. Yeah. Jacob would have made us the best negotiators in the world. Ravi would have made us the best communicators in the world. I think working with Alina would have just been the most fun company to be involved in in the world. how she's got that much joy after going through a full thing of growing a company from literally just her and her husband to getting to a billion valuation and still having joy. I think that's just that's absolutely ridiculous that someone would have that. But I don't mean this like loosely. Ravi asked us which conversations we had recently that gave us that feeling like this person's got incredible presence. most people that I think we find and I think it's because we're so deliberate in who we approach to ask to come onto the podcast and why so many people request to come on the podcast as guests then we say no and we and we we say we say no no thanks because there's a really specific set of characteristics that we're looking for so what maybe we'll come back to that like dream we'll do another podcast maybe in the future about like the dream dream team that we've built from the podcast But what if you think about the skills that these leaders have got, so like what makes them tick, what are the skills that you think are the strongest that you consistently see across these leaders that make them exceptional and make them gravity balls?

12:04I think I'm going to turn that back to you because you spend a lot of time talking to candidates at varying levels. So what would you see? what you just did. So great asking great asking questions. M so that's the first thing I think it's like why why these people have come through sales and that's a really interesting journey is because they've had to learn great questioning and I think unless you've gone through learning sales there's very few like careers that you could go through where someone goes right well let's stop and learn about the communication the mechanics of communication how it works let's do communications workshops let's listen back to your calls the thing that everyone hates let's be able to coach other people. Are you talking 20% of the time and listening 80? Are your questions open, closed? Was that a good question? Did you get the outcome? Did you achieve this objective? Are you helping people? Like then doing one-on- ones with your team, interviews, training, like the skill, the communication skill set that people have to develop to become a top leader and then to communicate that to a whole company, to investors, to get investment, to sell it. I think it's just it's an outrageous level of it's not even selling by being like persuasive and what you think of as a salesperson when people get started why it has this bad rep because people just talk is that they have they can ask the right question to get someone to unlock something in their brain that they weren't thinking about before or to completely reconsider and change their world view. So I think the questioning skill is the first thing that comes to mind. How about you? I think orchestration.

13:44So like especially a lot of people we talk to do enterprise selling, right? And there's increasing amounts of people in the blind committee and you have to be able to organize and orchestrate that across all those people. You have to understand all the processes and make sure you're getting that right and you're guiding other people through it. So it is that kind of thing of being that guide. You know, it's not like us versus them. We're trying to get the sale. It's like we're both trying to get to the same outcome. the sale is just part of that. But how do we orchestrate that and owning that I think is a really underrated part of doing that. And that's why I think when they get into the leadership position that really helps in that strategic sense because you've had to have that really big picture thinking. Yeah, I like it. Another question. So we were we deliberately during this last particularly like 20 episodes made a deliberate effort to go after people who understood the science like a neuroscience point of view around what makes people tick and answering that question and this is how we found Kevin so Kevin Bailey from dream fuel Brent Adamson challenger sale frame making sale Ravi came from asking that question so if you think about what you've learned about the mentality of the top leaders is and really what makes them tick maybe from like something that you've heard that reframed how they think or you've got a better understanding of the science of how we think. What comes to mind? I think it's that like athletics or athlete mindset of you know you have to do all the right preparation you have to do the right discovery not discovery recovery you have to do the right execution in the moment.

15:20There's loads of different things that go into it where actually like sales is like a sport, you know, you have to be in that discipline focus like I'm ready to perform and I think marrying that over with the corporate side of things and the company side of things. I think that's what I really loved about what what Kevin said is it is really think of it like a high performance sport. Yeah. The pressure is high, you know. So that's probably what what comes to mind for me. What about for you? Same thing. So I mean I think genuinely I know we asked Tammy who she would recommend if we wanted to go after someone that understood like the neuroscience of what makes you tick and she said Kevin. That question that we asked has changed my life because Tammy recommended Kevin. We had Kevin on the pod. We've now had I've had a bunch of conversations with Kevin. I've spoken to a few of his coaches. I'm now getting coaching from one of his coaches called Alex, who's just this incredible coach. and we're now going into partnership with Dream Fuel, which is amazing. Absolutely amazing. And it comes back to what Ravi said, which is we're expected to perform like or we expect ourselves, we expect ourselves to perform like athletes, but we don't recover like them. And then when you understand the science behind it is if you're constantly on and you're always pushing forward but you don't take that time to recover. Make sure you're aligned in terms of the objectives that you've got. do things like meditation, visualization, breathing exercises, stuff that seem like a bit woowoo and a bit like oh what? You're going to take a breathing exercise break? Are you weak?

17:01Like that's the the generation that we grew up in. To actually realize actually that's the difference that that can make is just is ridiculous. I've never done any of that stuff before, breathing exercises or visualization exercises. But I did a visualization exercise with this Alex guy, this coach. And it's burned into my brain so powerfully that I've changed so many of the habits of how I live from literally the from the moment I wake up the habits stacking through to like some of the goals that I'm helping that I'm working on achieving. It's just been like it's been like life-changing. So I think bringing that to people is super super exciting. Super exciting. So recovering like athletes, just actually realizing that we have to look after our brain and our physiology if we want to show up and be good leaders and good husbands and good parents. I think that's the other thing that I really liked about speaking to Kevin was he was talking about not just in a business context, but also just how what he's been learning impacts how he shows up in his personal life. And he had that concept of just like watching his thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. And that for me was just like, wait, what? He was like, yeah, I'm just sitting here watching the thoughts like fly by and analyzing them like it's a totally separate thing. And I think that that kind of presence to be able to just sit there, watch the thoughts go by and then decide how you want to respond. I think that's just invaluable, you know, and that's why when we were talking about with dream, it's like but everybody could benefit from this. Everybody could have a little bit of bits of that for for themselves.

18:29One more thing on that is how we are all just hardwired for dopamine. So we never talk about that. I I've heard before that we're like in sales we're like chemical junkies. And I didn't realize that we're talking about like dopamine circuitry, but it's like the win. You get obsessed with the win, chasing the win. It's like why people are in sales. Same in sports. Like you have that like I want to achieve this thing. I'm super competitive. But but actually that that can be really negative. Because if we neglect like trying to chase serotonin, like the really like feel-good chemicals and oxytocin, then we can just ultimately build up loads of cortisol and really negative chemicals which completely like screw our physiology. And how a lot of people in sales and sales leadership burn out because they drop a lot of those habits where they're actually getting fulfillment and a true sense of like congruence and alignment. And maybe they turn to drink or drugs and all these different things as a way of escaping the pressure that they're under because we're just going race race. We call it the rat race, right? We're just chasing this dopamine constantly without going, is this making me happy? And that was like a huge like wow, how much of what we chase is about chasing the actual chemical things that we need to feel a sense of fulfillment and peace and freedom. I think that question about, you know, does this make me happy? That's one of those things that feels a bit like almost like a bit woowoo. Do you know what I mean? Like, well, I want to make the money and the money will make me happy. But when you get it, do you actually go like, am I actually happy? You know, or when was I last happy?

20:08What really makes me feel the serotonin rather than the dopamine? Like, I don't think we really think about it in that in that way. And I think that our careers would look very different if we actually did. Cuz like having loads of money is great and stuff, but is it really going to make that much of a difference if your head's screwed up? No, not really. No. And and and how much is enough? And and you just you can constantly push forward and try and get more and more and more, but is there ever a point when you go, I feel like I've can enjoy this for a bit, or is it just constantly the race? But that's almost like the cardinal sin, right? You think, but I can't if I'm content, I'm not ambitious. And if I'm not ambitious, then I'm just getting worse. But those two things, you can still be content and ambitious. You can still be happy with what you achieved, but still know that you can do more. Like that balance, I think, is really difficult. I've got another one for you which is dream fuel. Yeah. So the way that he came up with that name and stuff, I loved it. But but it made me question one thing which is the American dream. So the American dream is really famous. Everyone knows it, right? People move continents to chase the American dream because not it doesn't matter who you know. It's like how hard you work you can make it. Whereas like in Italy it's who your parents know, who your family knows. Opportunity comes from introductions. Stephen should be Italian. Italian. Yeah. But so America has a dream and the Italians do have a dream which is to live like Lulchcevita and go and have coffee every day for 1 20 and spend time talking to people and buying fresh food for the day.

21:38Non like hyperprocessed crap that's going to make you feel bad. French same like work life balance. Even like a lot of the Nordic countries famously amazing like work life balance switch off at 5:00. If you don't switch off at 5:00 in Holland, you're seen as ineffective. In America, you're work shy, you're going to go on a pip. Yeah. Yeah. What's the British dream? You've hit on a big nerve for me because I feel like we don't have a British dream. Like, and I feel like that's part of why we don't compete in England like we could because and I've I've thought about this so much because I think in America, right, you don't have a king or a queen. Anybody could become president in theory. Yeah. He was the present. I've done it again. Sorry. The current president of America was he was a he was a reality TV star, right? Like he ran businesses, but he became president. they're just it could be anybody but here not anybody can become king or queen that opportunity to dream like that. Yeah. And I feel like we we punish people for being successful. Yeah. America reward most countries reward you for being successful. In England we like we backbite people that are successful. You know we make snidy little comments about it. And I think that that that's one of the things where actually I wanted to live in America and I wanted to raise my kids there because that competitiveness and like you can do anything that mindset I just feel helps America so much more then it helps than our mindset helps us. But are are Americans happier than Europeans? I do you know what I think happier than Europeans? No. Happier than English people? Yes. Cuz we also love to complain.

23:28It's like that's our dream. Stand in a queue and complain. Like that's the English street. Yeah. You know, the Italians complain too and the French. Yeah. But not not in the way it's an institution. They complain while having a coffee and a You know what I mean? In the mountains in the sun. Yeah. On siesta. Like we don't do that. But I think cuz I lived in America for a year, right? And America where I lived in the Midwest just the friendliest people, you know? They were super happy. Like they were happier than us actually. Yeah. I think Yeah. people in Miami were quite happy when I lived there for a year. but it was like the capital of South America. Yeah. So, you know, Yeah. they're they're happy people. I think where there is a British dream, okay, which is to work hard enough during your career or long enough in your career that you can retire somewhere else. How ironic is that? It's true, right? Yeah. That is it. You ask anyone like what's your dream, they're like I want to retire in Spain or Portugal or France or wherever. But do you think that's a bit biased based on where you grew up? It probably is. That's my dream. Because that's still quite like a privilege thing, right? My my privilege. Yeah, maybe. Maybe it is. But no one wants to stay, no one goes, well, my dream is like, you know, have this because we don't like where we are. And where if we go away, we enjoy it more. And everyone goes, oh, couldn't this like be all the time if you went away? Cuz I feel like where I grew up in Portsmouth, people didn't want to leave. Like they loved Port and just didn't want to leave. But was it their dream or really?

24:56Yeah. So, I had one friend who was dating an American girl and she lives in Miami. Yeah. He could have moved to Miami. He made her move to Portsmouth. I That's criminal. Well, but he loved what he didn't want to leave. Yeah. Didn't want to leave. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's good to get your perspective on it. For me, it's like they retire want to retire somewhere else. Interesting. But this is why I think the job of a leader bringing it back. Yeah. Yeah. is is our job is to make it like such a wicked place because people do come to England all the time for like the English dream which is that you can you can earn really good money get a great education we have free healthcare you know it's a it's a really good place commercially to be right buy property in England you're sorted right buy property outside you're a bit screwed because the property price isn't going to do that so it is it has got a pool maybe we just don't see it because we're here or maybe people in Portsouth maybe that's the answer live in Portsouth but I think Those things are changing though because I think the pound is not getting stronger like it used to. House prices you out the wazoo for that. So I do wonder like the things that traditionally we had, right? Cuz that's part of why my parents came from Nigeria, right? Go and earn in pounds like the education, but I don't feel like we're competing like that anymore. You know, I used to get a degree for what, like 10 grand. Now it's like 50. Do you know what I mean? So you could just go to America and go to like a private school there and do that. So I think we're losing a lot of that competitive edge and the dream that people might have come here for before. We're not even part of the EU anymore, right? So all those people that were coming over because they they're not they're not doing that. So I do wonder what is the British dream going forward because I just don't feel like we have one.

26:36I think it's work for a wicked leader in a wicked company, develop an incredible skill set and then have the freedom to go and make choices whether that's stay in Portsmouth or whether it's go to Italy or to America like you build up enough like credibility and equity in your skill set that you have the freedom to go elsewhere. I I feel like we live in a very particular part of the LinkedIn world for example, right? everybody that we talk to or try and surround ourselves with has that kind of mindset. I'd be really intrigued to see outside of our bubble what do people actually think cuz I think that's a very like that resonates with me and I'd absolutely but I also know like we're not most of Britain. Yeah. So if there's any teachers or nurses or bus drivers listening to this episode Yeah. Let us know. Yeah. Cuz like we're like you lived in America for like you're open to travel. I think Yeah. I think it should just be interesting to see what people not in our like LinkedIn self-improvement bubble think about that. So, I don't think we'll fix that one in today's episode, but maybe we'll come back to it. So, looking forward cuz we don't know how long we're going to do this for, right? You know, I'm sure it won't be like this infinite thing where we're 80 like sat on like our rocking rocking chairs on the Amalfi Coast. Yeah, maybe it will. What makes you tick? But but however long this runs for, maybe it's another 3 years. I'd love to think it will be. I'd love to think we still got that energy for it. What where would you like to be in 3 years time?

28:06So what in 3 years time, what's what have we done? What's come true that you go? This was literally the best project that I was ever involved with. I think again I'm going to have to throw that one back to you because this was your idea. Do you know what I mean? So what is what's your dream for it? It's only my idea because I went on your podcast and loved it so much that I said we have to do something together. Absolutely. But still, this was this was your dream. My dream fuel. What's fueling it now? So So what's the coolest thing that's happened? So we're we're in year four now of our core business, Tick Talent, and everything that I wanted to achieve with that business is true, which is crazy. I'm like, this is amazing. We have like a bit of certainty and security. We got wicked clients and we we're good. good. We get lots of testimonials and la like we're seen as like the go-to and we got lots of friends who like us and trust us and think of us which is just amazing. And the podcast for us was this unlock which is the traditional way that recruitment businesses win business is that they just go I saw your advertising for a role. I've got the perfect candidate. Here's our terms. Do you want to do a deal? And then they don't get to know you. They didn't spend time. and they send the same candidate to five other businesses at the same time they're sending it to yours. There's no relationship there. So for us, it was a way to go and find amazing leaders who would create amazing environments, train people and make them successful, which is the dream.

29:34So and we managed to find all these amazing people and then form completely different relationships with completely different levels of connection and trust and many of who are now great friends of ours. Some of whom we've met. I want to meet all of those people. Yeah. So, meeting more people that we don't know exist today who are just doing incredible things and have so much passion for leading was one thing. Meeting way more of our guests in person and building like proper face to face connection, bellyto-belly relationships. Thought we were going to escape that. And and doing like some cool stuff like taking Tick on tour and bringing some of our guests together would be amazing. I also dream about connecting more of our guests. So I just thought there's so many people who should know each other that don't know each other because we didn't know any of these people when we started and they didn't know we exist. So I just started going right if I if I have a moment I go I should connect this person with this person and just do like a warm introduction the Stephen man introduction and then they speak and they go that was an amazing conversation and I don't know how that's going to work but if we could scale that and when I say scale it I don't mean like automate with AI. Yeah. I mean, but do more of it. Make it like a real cool thing about coming on the pod is that you get to meet all these wicked leaders like you so we can exchange ideas. I think that would be amazing. And I do imagine that one day we'll be on stage interesting talking to a group of people sharing these learnings bringing some of these experts on and cutting away from the absolute AI advice nonsense that exists and just bring in real people with real stories to inspire like the next generation while they're just looking for some guidance and some leadership beyond their company which was the dream for us right when we first started which is we came for a business both spent 12 years in a business finished and Oh, we know no one.

31:23We know no one. So, like giving people mentors outside of their circle that they can learn from and be vulnerable with I think for me would just be would just be absolutely incredible. That's my dream. What about you? I like all of that. Yes. To me, all the people. I think just thinking about like wider impact. So you remember when we were speaking to Tony the other day about how AI is impacting kind of I don't want to call it bottom of the funnel but like early careers is probably the better term and I think with the network of people we're building how can we make our own impact into that. So yeah just being able to impact early careers and help people find the right place to work. And that's what that's what I really liked about about when we first started talking was that you talked about how the interview process is a two-way thing. Yeah. And it's not just about the company figuring out if you're a good fit, but you've also got to figure out if that's a good fit for you and it's the right environment. And I think one of the things I've loved about the podcast is that people are using the podcast to understand the people they're going to be interviewed by, you know, so they're actually watching the podcast before and going, "Oh, okay. I now understand a bit more about David or Ben or whoever, and they're understanding what they're walking into." Yeah. And I really love that we can impact that side of things because you know when you can place someone in the right role and they go on to have a great career both sides are happy that's amazing. Yeah. You know so yeah I think having more impact in that sense as well would be really really nice.

32:55Sign me up. Done. I think we're done my friend. Cool. Three years. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Cool. So we'll do it again soon. Maybe we'll do like a a fouryear perspective and look back at what what we've achieved in the in the next third sprint of our way to get to six years. Six years. Let's do 10 years. Sounds good. Deal. Done. So, thank you so much for joining us for 3 years and 150 episodes. We would love to connect more with you. So, make sure you subscribe or reach out to me and Rich on LinkedIn cuz we've got loads of amazing guests coming up. So, we'd love to have you on the journey. So, make sure you subscribe for three things. One, our career stories podcast, what makes you tick? Our making revenue tick series, which is master classes. And then every Sunday, we release a 20inute episode, which is the best bits from both shows. And you can follow all of this in our LinkedIn newsletter, what makes you tick, for the best bits of every episode in a nice, easy to enjoy format.