Scaling Founder-Led Sales Without Losing What Wins Customers

00:27Tolu Adebekun:David, welcome to What Makes You Tech. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

00:32David De Paula:Thank you. Thanks for having me.

00:36Tolu Adebekun:Our our absolute pleasure. We are very excited for this conversation. Aren't we, Rich? Welcome you as well.

00:40Richard Washington:We are indeed. We've, we made a deliberate decision that we said we're going to try and find some of the best European sales leaders because we are having quite a lot of US sales leaders on the podcast in a row. And we, went on a bit of a mission to try and find the very best people and found David. And I'm delighted because we're doing a lot of work in the DevOps space at the moment. And and David's got an incredible history within DevOps companies at a very senior level. I I love the fact that he's worked not only extensively across EMEA, but has been first boots on the ground and breaking over an APAC as well, which is no small feat having having spent some time over in Auckland when we tried to do that as a company. And and we did this successfully, but I know that David did it with probably less resources and he's a VP of international sales, worked at some amazing companies that people would recognize like Cloudbees, perforce Magellem, Daso, Liquibase, and probably some that I've missed as well, but an incredible history, particularly this early stage, where that founder sales transition to a professional go to market engine ready for scale is something that he's done incredibly successfully. So I'm looking forward to kind of getting into the human side of that story and the career and the principles and the lessons and the journey that he's been on to reach the point in his career now where he's helping so many businesses achieving so many amazing things. So yeah, let's get cracking. I'm looking forward to it.

02:03Tolu Adebekun:Definitely. And I'm excited for the risks that he took because from our our little pre-chat, there are some really cool risks that he took on the journey. So what makes you tick?

02:16David De Paula:I think what really makes me tick is helping people and organizations grow through transition points. I mean if I look at on a professional side, I'm energized by moments when technology companies reach some inflection points and when early success needs to evolve into something bigger, u something more structured and something scalable. And as Richard mentioned, I mean sometimes that means helping founders evolve from early commercial momentum into a repeatable revenue system. And other times it means when the company is a bit more advanced, it means helping companies that already have a strong go-to-market foundation scale internationally in a more probably in a more efficient way and more predictable way. like what I did with CloudBiz. And the other thing I want to add is maybe beyond the business growth, what matters just as much to me is helping people grow. Mentoring, coaching have become a huge part of my motivation today as well. And and that's something also very personal for me today because now my daughter is beginning her own journey to take sales as well. And as I watch her start her career I mean it really reminds reminds me how meaningful it to help people growing, discovering their potential. Because clearly she was not designed to do that. And I think today she's doing it very well. So yeah, that that's what makes me tick today.

03:56Tolu Adebekun:What was that conversation like where your daughter told you that she wanted to basically have your career that that you're doing? Oh,

04:03David De Paula:It was by accident. It was really by accident because she was I mean she was very passionate about the luxury industry. And and she she was in a business school and she had to do like a six month training period abroad outside of France and she couldn't find our training period. and And she said to me, Dad, can you help? And I said, sure, but my network is in the tech industry. I mean, if so probably I mean if I find you something, if I help you find you something, it will be in the tech industry. So first she said, well, okay, I don't know, I'm not sure. And so I just did, I mean, posted something on LinkedIn and like three hours later, she had like three or four proposals for internship and and all of them in the tech sector. And and she decided to go with u one company called Smart IoT. it's a They do custom IoT project. and And what she's doing there is she's a BDR, but not only a BDR, she's a BDR closer. Now she's also closing deals. She's not only sourcing the deal, she's also closing the deals. And and I as I yeah as I watch her along her journey, I mean, already as a as a BDR, I mean, I can see a lot of very interesting patterns. I mean, things that are different from when I started or or how she... yeah How she does things today, very very interesting. I mean today if if I when when I meet with her, I mean like probably we spend most of the time talking about work. and and and and I mean Last time I was invited to her place for dinner, we talked about Met Peak, we talked about champion, we talked about qualifying deals. we talk about So that's very different discussions but very interesting.

05:50Richard Washington:Thank you.

05:50Tolu Adebekun:The What are some of those things that you've been able to tell her that are still relevant for even from back when you started? Because obviously you're a lot further on in your career, but what are some of those things that you've been able to share with her that have still been able to have a really good impact?

06:04David De Paula:Well, I think it's it's it's always, I mean, it's the basics, right? It's that That always apply. I mean, understanding your customer, understanding the pain you're you're trying to solve for your customer, understanding the value you're bringing, understanding what is the decision process, understanding who is your champion. All those these things that, I mean, never change, right? It's it It was the same 20 years ago, it's the same today. And it's still relevant for me at my stage of the career than it is for her at her stage. So yeah, I think that's probably the the the number one thing that stays the same. So

06:42Richard Washington:So obviously we've heard your stories, your your your daughter's story of how she got in. Like how what was your break into tech?

06:49Tolu Adebekun:And so

06:49David De Paula:Well, it was accidental too, actually. So basically what happened there is I I had not yet completed my business school. So I was it was just before finishing my master's degree. And I remember at that time feeling very very anxious about finding my first real job. So what I started to do is I started to send unsolicited applications to all the companies around me. I mean, I was in the Paris area at that time. and I mean, looking back today, I I honestly think those letters that I sent were terrible. I mean, they were only about me and what I think they were really terrible. And I'm amazed anyone replied at all. But one company did respond, actually. And and that changed everything. And that company was it was a manufacturer or semiconductor equipment.

07:43Tolu Adebekun:You

07:43David De Paula:And the company had recently been acquired by a new owner and we had a very strong international vision and especially toward Asia and the US because obviously when you work in the semiconductor business, I mean, and especially on the manufacturing site, everything happening in Asia or in or in the US. And they hired me to I mean to lead that international development effort. And that that was very funny because like, A week after I joined, I remember I was already in South Korea, visiting customers like Samsung or Hyundai and having real commercial discussions. I mean, it was only one week into the job and that was really the the beginning of my sales journey. So again, I entered in sales almost by accident. But once I experienced it, immediately I knew I loved it and I never left. That's

08:43Richard Washington:Amazing. That's amazing. I I can't imagine what that was like. So you'd not had you what was your like, career history before then had you had a commercial role outside of tech before then or that how like uncomfortable? No. No.

08:58David De Paula:Because it was my first job. I mean, I just had my degree and it was my first job at all. I mean, it was, and and and and I mean, and also the other thing is, and and maybe I can touch that when we talk about the, I mean, the risk later, but obviously when you sell semiconductor equipments, I mean, you end up talking to very, very technical people.

09:23Richard Washington:That's amazing.

09:23Tolu Adebekun:Right. Thank

09:23David De Paula:Especially when you talk about manufacturing process in the semiconductor, I mean you talk with doctors and and I had just had a business degree and I had no idea what they were talking about. So the the the beginning was really challenging I would say just because I mean I had to learn about the the industry, I had to learn about the problems but in the end it was I think it was a a good challenge to have because it it really helps staying staying curious and and and and learning permanently. and And now if I look back I mean at my career, for the last 20 years, I always worked for tech companies selling to tech people. And different type of technology to different type of people, but always tech product to tech to tech people. M

10:18Richard Washington:What do you think made you successful in those early days? I had a similar story in that I just immediately loved it when I got into my first SDR role. Just loved it. I like, is the best thing in the world. What was it that made you successful and that you most enjoyed about that first, you know, first ever endeavor into tech sales? I think the the I

10:41David De Paula:Think I was lucky that the the rule was international.

10:49You know, there was it was I mean I

10:49David De Paula:I came from a family where we didn't travel at all. So it's like pretty much I stayed in France or sometimes in Portugal where my dad was born. But that's it. So it was like my first exposure to the world, I would say. and and And probably that's what made me successful. Because of that, I mean I really had a passion for what I was doing. I mean I was eager to go visit my customers, spend time with my customer, understand their culture, understand how they work. And and I think that's what made me successful at that time and still probably today. that's I mean I love to to understand not only the business side of my customers, but... also the cultural side. I mean, I was I was lucky enough in my career to live and work in three or maybe four different continents, if you believe that UK is a is a continent on its own, but US, Asia, Europe and UK. so yeah, it gives me a good overview of the different cultures and how people work, how people live. and and ultimately, I think it really helps also understanding how they behave in business.

12:05Richard Washington:Yeah, I do love that. And I think it is true, UK is separate. Not only did we decide that we're separate, you know, and voted for that wonderful decision. But when I talk to my friends in America, I always say, "Oh yeah, I'm going to Europe. So I consider going into Europe as a as a different place. Absolutely. I think it I think it qualifies. What's...

12:26David De Paula:And now it takes more time for me to get into the UK than to get into Singapore.

12:31Richard Washington:I know, right? I know. I know. What's What's the story about how you got into leadership then, David?

12:38David De Paula:You mean leadership, not management, right? I'm asking because...

12:46Richard Washington:There's a question. Yeah.

12:48David De Paula:Yeah, because I mean, if the question is really about leading and not managing, because I mean I started managing people very, very early in my career. But I think leading is something very, very different. I I think I started leading people when I realized leadership is not about having all the all the answers all the time, but it's about creating the clarity for others. That's really what what I believe. And because in the past, I remember I thought that leadership meant being the strongest individual performer. I think over time what I learned is real leadership is really about helping others succeed consistently and especially in a earth-contained environment. Like when you work in startups or scale-up, which is I've been doing most of my career, there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of change. and And managing people in that kind of environment, I mean, you really want to help people. I mean, you don't want to be the one who say people what to do, but you really want to be helping your your team and and coaching and mentoring the team. Yeah. So I think that changed my whole perspective at some point.

14:03Richard Washington:It's a really good, it's a really good point. Obviously we talk a lot about leadership versus management. I remember doing a task with the managers that I was promoting from, you know, salespeople into my leadership team. And we always had a task, which was we would go through and get people's take on the difference between a leader and a manager. And I always found it fascinating to hear what people said. One thing that I only heard much later on from an old CEO was when he got rid of the word manager from the hierarchy of the business. is he said, I don't want to have managers in the business because no one wants to be managed. And I was like, that's a good point, isn't it? Have you ever asked anyone like, do you like to be managed? Everyone says no. So we flip that to coach because everyone wants coaching and everyone wants mentoring developing. And you've mentioned all of those words when you're talking about leadership. So I'm just curious what comes to mind when you think about, obviously you've mentioned a couple of things then, but why is it Like you you've had a realization then about the difference between management and leadership. Talk us through how that, how you came to that realization.

15:10David De Paula:Yeah, sure. So what happened there is I was I was married with a coach. My my wife was a coach. and I think she told me a lot about, I mean, I think she she she gave me exposure to something called NLP. And and I found it very interesting right away. and and And so I started to really understand more about NLP, going through all the different trainings is there. And NLP is a wonderful way to learn how to to communicate and how to lead at the end of the day. So I think for me, that was my inflection point when I was exposed to NLP and it gave me a completely different perspective on what was a leader.

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16:18Richard Washington:I'm fascinated by NLP. I've never studied it formally and I'm not a practitioner, but my old CEO was, was one. and so yeah, I remember, Oh, there you go. So I can ask you now some questions. Maybe they'll be quite useful.

16:31David De Paula:Yep, I am too.

16:31Richard Washington:So I always learned NLP is the map is not the territory. And I was like, well, that makes a lot of sense to me that people have a different interpretation of what reality is. And therefore a big part of all of this is understanding how someone else sees the world rather than trying to tell people that they're wrong and that your view of the world is right. What does

16:48David De Paula:Because we all we all we all have our own filters. Yeah. Exactly. And the filters come from our experience, It comes from our our beliefs, it comes from different things. And and everything we all I mean, we interpret all information, all situations with our own filters. So yeah, that's that's that's true.

17:09Richard Washington:So I'm really fascinated as someone who is a p practitioner in NLP, and has has taken and it's actually had quite a big influence on how you see the role of leadership. And I'm sure how you coach people, what are some of the things that NLP has helped you to think differently about and understand better to be a more effective leader?

17:30David De Paula:I think the communication part for sure. What what you learn from NLP is when you you you you want to communicate, you always start from yourself. What is your need? What is your feeling? Why you need people? you know, rather than like if if someone in your team does something wrong, rather than going right away say you did that wrong, you start by explaining what was the impact of what you did. and and And by doing that, the reaction you have from that person will be very different than if you just go and say, "Oh, you did that wrong. That was not the way to do it. And then the they the by by doing it as well and by asking the right questions, you also help people to find their own response. And again, that's the difference between the manager and the leader is the the manager will give the response and will tell people what to do. The leader will help people, everybody finding it his its own response. And I think that's what NLP where NLP helped me a lot is really by improving my my communication communication skills and then my leadership skills because of that.

18:41Richard Washington:That's that's fascinating. I really I can we could do a whole different podcast on this one. I don't want to hog it all on NLP, but I find I found it so fascinating. So in answer to the question it. is a

18:52David De Paula:It is a great tool, it is really a great tool. Maybe we should and I mean, as a sales as a sales leader I always I mean, NLP is also a great tool to to create cohesion within teams. Okay. Yeah, talk about that. because in NL in NLP, we talk a lot about the the values and especially the personal values, because you know it's always you always have companies trying to impose their values. this is our values, you it must be yours. That's not how it works. I mean, we all have our own values. So by using NLP, what you can do is really help people take a of their own personal values. And and by doing some exercise, then you can you can really define what are the common values the team have. And then you build the cohesion based on these common values. That you will find amongst the team. And that's very, very powerful way to do it. I did that a few times in my career with my teams. It it it it really works well.

19:56Richard Washington:Could you share a real example of of one of the most memorable times when you've managed to do that with a team so we can make it real for the listeners? Yeah, I mean it it's some people will

20:08David De Paula:I mean, their personal value will be about the money, some people will be about the family, some people will be about loyalty, some people so we will all have our own value. like If you find that, I don't know, let's say okay it's a sales team, so let's say money comes up quite quite high in the in in the in the ranking here. Then what you I mean you what you build is in terms of like compensation for instance is really something where you you're 100 % sure that the team will be happy with in terms of in terms of money or or by creating incentive where as a team you can help each other making money. [clears throat] that that's That's one example where where I use it. I mean I I use money because it's it's it's it's an obvious example when you're in sales but but there there's many like sometimes you realize that for many people family is a big big value like family comes first U so you want to make sure that in everything you do family is taken into account M like when you do team dinner when you obviously if you have like a president's club or or or something. I mean you always think about the the the family to to make sure that you will you will get a full addition from from the team.

21:39Richard Washington:Yeah, it makes sense. I think so many organizations would just naturally get towards money because you know, targets compensation. It's a lot. It's a big driver for people to originally get into tech sales. If they see their friends in tech sales, making great money, but ultimately the ones who just go and chase that don't often end up very successful or very fulfilled. And it's the ones who attach different value to it and see money as fuel often.

22:06David De Paula:Course.

22:08Richard Washington:They're much more successful than the ones who will really do anything to make a buck.

22:15David De Paula:Yeah, absolutely. Fully agreed.

22:17Richard Washington:So I asked you about your first role in leadership and then we had a whole conversation about this manager leader thing. What was the true What was the first true leadership role that you had and how did you get it?

22:31David De Paula:Yeah, so it was with a company called Medjilm. And that's also a very interesting story here because very, so I was at the time with a company called Desos System. Tesos system is a big company, French software company. I think at the time it was already 1.5 billion AR company. and and And I was in a very good position there. I mean, I was part of the talent pool, I mean, for exec roles and in a very good position. and and But I very quickly I realized I don't like working for big companies and and I had an opportunity to join a company that was at the time less than 10 people, no customers, no revenues, nothing. So it was like going from a 10 000 people company to a five people company, first GTM on the ground and and everything to be built. And Of course, I started as a direct contributor. and what I did is, so again, it was the primary market for that company was the semic semiconductor business as well. So again, when you talk about, even if it was already in the enterprise software side. So what I did is first I moved over to the US to start building the US market for that company. and And I stayed there for two years and I built the team. So I built the team for that company in the US while still building the team in Europe as well. So I think that was my first real management leadership experience. It was with that company when yeah I started to build a team from from the ground. Wow.

24:15Richard Washington:Where were you in the US?

24:19David De Paula:I was in the Bay Area in Palo Alto.

24:22Richard Washington:Okay, what what what an experience to to go there. What what were what are some of the the things that you've observed? And obviously you work for some US businesses, you've worked for many global businesses, you've been all around the world working for businesses. What are some of the biggest differences you noticed about how business works in the US and what it takes to be successful than you were used to back in Europe? probably things go I mean

24:49David De Paula:I find US people maybe a little bit more pragmatic some sometimes. they things go Things go faster. I mean they They have a problem, they know they have a problem, they are very open about their problem and if you can help them, it's I would say it's probably, my US colleague will not like it, but easier to get the deal. When in Europe and in Asia, u Things take more time, definitely things take more time. Also in the US, you have you can have decisions coming from the top, Yeah. where you have the exec or the manager, they say, this is what we're going to do, do it. That doesn't work in in Europe, for instance. In Europe, it requires a consensus. And when you want a consensus, obviously it means it takes more time because you need more people to agree on the same thing. Also the... On the financial side, I would say the there's more scrutiny in the in Europe than in the US. At least it was the case before, but still today, I still think it's the case. It's also the case today. So I think that's the main main difference. and and also probably another difference in in the US, you will it's easier to get access to the EB. I mean, usually it's something that is well understood in Europe or in Asia. It's something you earn. So it's not you kind of have to get access to an EBE, to an executive, it's something you heard and you heard through getting trust from the people you talk to. So I think that's the main difference I see between the different u geographies. Then in in terms of how you sell, I mean, I think there's, APAC is also very different in a sense, it's very much a partner led market as well.

26:39David De Paula:When in the US and... Also in Europe, you tend to work directly with your customers. In Asia, it's it's it's more difficult. I mean, in Asia, you need to have partners. Every company work with partners. And if you don't do that, u there's a very good chance you will fail.

26:59Richard Washington:Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I'm curious about that decision point because going from Dasso into a 10 person business where you're the first GTM is a massive, massive change. Quite risky in many ways. Very risky. Talk us very risky. Talk us through that decision.

27:20David De Paula:You know, I think maybe the... So first thing is, as I said, I I I realized very quickly I was not designed to work for big companies. Too much politics, too much bureaucracy. So I I did not I I I had the feeling I was not bringing the all the value I could to the company. And so that's that's the first thing. And then what happened is... u that company reached out to me and first I did not understand why, to be fair but then talk I mean I I I found the role interesting and and you know what,

28:00Probably the reason why I made I mean one of

28:03David De Paula:The reason why I made that move is not a good one, I mean it's not a good reason it's it's it's by ego, it's like because I had a VP sales title Okay. You know [clears throat] and And I think it was it was a lot about an ego decision at that point. Now I think, now I'm thinking about it. It was like, okay, I was an account executive, now I'm a VP of sales. To some extent, it's step up in my career, except on one hand, I was already in charge of a business of like 50 million AR. And then I joined a company where I had no business, but but I had the title.

28:37Richard Washington:Yeah, that's, that's, that's fascinating. I mean, I can see why that would be attractive, but also, you know, there's a lot of responsibility for someone to take to suddenly be a, to suddenly be a VP. What were, what were some of the, the most interesting lessons that you've learned in that transition from going from being an AE in a massive organization to being a VP and very much an intrapreneurial role where you're building something with the business, everything from literally I'm selling this as well as I'm building the team across different geographies. What are some of the the biggest lessons that you took from that experience.

29:10David De Paula:Well, obviously, I mean, I remember when I joined, the first thing that really shocked me is how decisions are taken very quickly. It's like I remember at Desso, you wanted to make a proposal to a customer, it would take a week just to get all the approvals, everything. Here it was like a chat with my CEO, done, two minutes. I could send a proposal out. I think that's the first thing that I that really shocked me is how things can go fast Yeah. and the agility you have as a small company. So probably that was my first first lesson. Second lesson is, actually I was talking about ego before. I mean, you shouldn't have any ego when you work with with small companies because at the end of the day, you know you will have to do things that... If you don't do them, nobody will do them. So you you need to be very very very hands on. You need to do things that on the paper should not be done by a VP or something. But still, at the end of the day, you need to do them. So I think it's, yeah, you really need to put aside your ego when you work with with a small company. I think that's probably one of the my biggest lessons.

30:23Richard Washington:It's fascinating because we warn often, and this is not just my experience, but many people I talked to warn against hiring the big logo reps and managers into your startup because they're used to a completely different level of resources. And often without a structured playbook, without really a clear strategy and certainly without a wider team around them, a lot of people really struggle in that environment. But I also talk about how it's one of the best things in the world. If you can find someone who's got experience of both startups and larger size businesses, because in larger businesses, they've got some real magic there that's enabled them to reach a level of scale that they've achieved. It doesn't happen by accident. And that business started probably in a garage, you know, it started with a with a team. Absolutely. And And so I think that what you have now is this dream concoction of startup, scale up and enterprise experience. So you understand what the full journey looks like some of the mistakes that people can make some of the the fundamentals that you need to put in place to actually go and make a business successful. I just wonder when I'm talking about all of this, what what comes to mind?

31:38David De Paula:Just good memories actually Really good memories about I mean I it was sometimes it was tough, but it was good memories I mean I remember all the because Yeah, I I remember at the time I was I was not like I mean I didn't have the knowledge I have today about What is your ICP? How are you? I mean being focused But but I remember that's what I did at the end of the day. I mean, I remember I was okay

32:06Richard Washington:No.

32:06David De Paula:I looked at our solution, where we had our first success, really trying to assess where it could be replicated. I a top 20 logos I wanted to crack, being very intentional on these logos. And sometimes it means the logos were Intel in the Bay Area, and then you had Samsung in Korea, and then you you had Infineon in Germany, and then you had Intel again in Israel. And it was like... spending my life in a plane, going from customers to customers. And and that's that's that's what it did remind me. I mean, it's all the hours in the plane, all the crazy jet lags, like being on one week on the on on on the US West Coast, the week after in Europe, and then the week after in Asia Pacific, and then flying again to the US the week after. All these crazy things, but it was to me it was meaningful. It was really meaningful and at the end of the day, I mean something I didn't mention yet, but that company we took it from 0 to 25 million AR and and a successful exit. So at the end of the day, it's probably one of my best, best experience, I would say in my career and best success for sure.

33:25Richard Washington:Yeah, it's it's amazing. The whole like this, that's a massive revenue stage of growth to the, many different challenges that you would have faced along, along that journey. And I would imagine what you learned as a professional and how much you evolved during that experience would have been, would have been incredible. What was, what are some of the big.

33:43David De Paula:A lot. Yeah, learned a lot. for For that company, I mean, the thing is, I as I mentioned before, I worked for two years in the US, but also once the US team was up and running, u I decided to do the same in Asia. So I moved over to Hong Kong as well for a couple of years. And and and what I did in the US, I did the same in in Asia Pacific. So what it means is not only I learned about the business, of course, I did learn a lot about the business, but I also learned a lot about

34:12Richard Washington:Yeah.

34:12David De Paula:The people, I learned a lot about the cultures, a lot a lot about... because I think in the during the seven years I spent in the company, I don't know, maybe, I don't know, I went 20 or 50 times to Japan, 50 times to China, I lived in the US, I lived in Hong Kong, I so it was like really, I mean, a life-changing experience for sure. wow

34:39Richard Washington:That's amazing. If you think about who David was at the start of that journey. to the one who left that business at the end of the 25 million scale journey. What are some of the biggest differences in those those two people? h

34:56David De Paula:That's a good question. I mean, I was, I think at the end of the day, I was much more structured, much more structured person because when I started, it was like, I had no structure at all. I mean, it was like, okay, apart from, okay, I know this is the account I want to track. But apart from that, I had no structure in how I work, why I would hire people, where. So it was, it was kind of random, I would say based on my, u based on my gut feeling. I mean, it was a lot about gut feeling. That's, I think that's a good way to summarize it. It was a lot about my gut feeling at the beginning of my journey. Later, it was more backed by real data, real experience, real. so I think that would be the the main difference.

35:48Richard Washington:Yeah, it makes sense to reach that. So it's got size of scale. You can't just be a hero who just goes and he produces magic and cause you can't replicate it and people can't learn. You can't learn that. And I think it's one of the hardest things that particularly founders find is, is why they often need someone like you to join them is cause they are magical and they've taken this idea and turned it into something great, but they're going, how do we achieve scale here? And someone that can translate the vision into strategy and then act you know, plans and responsibilities and getting the right people on board clear on what they need to go and achieve. But also we are still building this thing together. So I can't so clearly define your role that it's just going to plug and play. It's It's a really fascinating space. What is it you love about this journey? I know you've kind of like made a career of this stage ever since this kind of like early stage through to series BC. This is what you really love, particularly in international environments. What is it you love about this part of the revenue journey?

36:49David De Paula:I think I like the kind of chaos you find when you joined where everything needs to be built, everything needs to be to be structured. As you said, I mean there's there's already some magic happening usually led by the founder and and that that effort of understanding why the magic and and how to replicate the magic without losing the the passion. is is is I think it's a very nice very nice journey to begin. The only thing you want to make sure is the yeah you you have I mean you can really work hand in hand with the founder and if you can do that, then you're up for some great success, I believe. but but the that effort of really trying to understand what is the vision of of the founder, why he did that company. I mean, the the why is is is very important and and and Yeah, I think that's what I like the most here is really getting into the brain of the of the founders who are obviously mostly technical people, brilliant people. And and and and that's I have a lot of admiration for for for founders.

38:03Richard Washington:Yeah. So, so we know then David, that after this successful exit, you just kind of relaxed and chilled in your career. Oh no, no, you didn't. You decided that you wanted to take some more, more big bets. So, so after that experience, what was, what decision did you make? What was the next big bet that you took in your career?

38:23David De Paula:So after that, I went through to a company called Perforce. Probably I won't say it was my biggest bet here. I mean, it was it was a great experience because I was in charge of sales for Perforce products in EME and APAC for the high tech and gaming industries, which were booming for Perforce. So it was like a very fast growing environment, which was very, I think what I, but it was a great experience because I learned a lot. I mean, Fairforce was a very structured company already and P baked. So I learned a lot about how P baked companies are behaving, what are their constraints. So it was, I think it was a great experience in that sense. But probably the u one of the most defining experience for me recently has been CloudBiz, which came right after Perforce. tell us about that. yeah, I like the clubby stories here because what what happened with clubbies is I was hired as the, as a VP of sales for EMEA and it was at the time clubbies was not doing very well. I mean, there were a lot of retention problems. So it was a lot about rebuilding the team. Also, the company was going through, was transitioning from being a single product company, I mean, as Jenkins Enterprise to a DevOps platform. So which means it's a completely different sale. I mean, now you get into really complex selling rather than something more transactional. So you need to change all the narrative, you need to sell. I mean, basically you need different people, I mean different skills. So It was a lot about rebuilding the team to be able to sell the platform. So, but that's for the AMEA part. But I think the most interesting part for me is the what happened with APAC. So what happened there is when I joined, I realized although Clubbies was already a hundred million company, I mean, in terms of AR, so already decent size, they wouldn't do anything at all in APAC, like zero, almost zero. and And what I...

40:41David De Paula:Did is I asked my CEO at the time, can I take care of APAC? and And he said to me, say, sure, but two conditions here. One, it should not have any impact on your role as a sales leader for EMEA. And second is you have no resource, build the case for me. So what happened there is for a certain period of time, I was on one hand, I was the sales leader for EMEA having a team of 10 AEs growing our EMEA business. And on the other end, I was for AIPAC as a direct contributor. So trying to get our first customers in AIPAC by myself. And I was lucky enough that we very, very quickly, like in the first six months, we had three very nice contracts with some of the big banks in Australia and Singapore, to the point where my CEO said to me, okay, now I understand. You can start building the team. And then I started to build the team in Singapore, I started to build the team in Australia as well. And at the time, my CEO would call me the CEO of APAC because it was not only about sales, I mean, it was really about trying to build cloud-bas. So that was a that was a really really cool experience. And APEC quickly became like one of the fastest, I mean, the fastest growing region for CloudBees. And what happened there is a new CRO joined at some point, and he said to me, you know I want a I want a leader for each region. So you need to choose one. email APAC, but you need to choose one. And and at the time, I mean, APAC was kind of my baby. So I decided to do APAC and I moved over to Singapore. and And I stayed in Singapore for a couple of years to continue developing cloud-based sales in in APAC.

42:35David De Paula:So I know you you like the term of intrapreneur. I think that's exactly what it was there. I mean, it was like building a a company within an existing company.

42:50Richard Washington:I'm really fascinated to get into your brain. So so a lot of people wouldn't have done that. Or if they got the pushback from the CEO to say, yeah, you can do that, but it can't affect your main job. They would kind of go, well, that's not realistic. You know, it's going to affect It's going to affect my job. What was going on in your brain that made you go, do you know what? I'm going to go for this. because I see something here that maybe other people don't see and maybe even my CEO doesn't truly believe enough to really go and invest into it properly. What was going on in your brain that made you take that very bold decision, which could have failed miserably, but it didn't.

43:33David De Paula:Of course. Yeah, two things. I think the first thing is a strong conviction that APAC was a great u territory for cloudbies and it would have been a big miss not to consider it. That's I think that's the first thing. it's it was really a strong conviction that there was a lot to be done in APAC for cloudbies. And as I mentioned before, I mean I I I already had that experience of living in a region in Hong Kong. So I I know exactly how things work there. I know the potential. I mean, if if I look at also the other DevOps companies, what they do in APAC, you can see there's there's there's there's a case. I mean, the case is is, to me, was quite easy to build. So that's one thing. And on the to be also very fair, and that would be the second reason is... I was lucky enough that when I joined CloudBees in AMEA, we had a couple of very big deals, which I mean, I was very confident that it would be a good year. M So it's like on one hand, the business was kind of already secured to some extent. So to me, it was a risk, but not so much in the end.

44:49A lot of people it was more it was

44:50David De Paula:It was more an opportunity than a risk for sure.

44:53Richard Washington:Well, for sure. A lot of people probably would have relaxed. doesn't seem like that's in your DNA to do. You went, right, that's kind of, I'm confident there. Now I want more challenge. And you you you you you went and made that happen, which I which I love. I think that I can imagine if I was a CEO in that scenario and I had someone that was already impressing, say they want to go and take on a different market for me, I would be telling all my other people, this is the kind of behavior that... that is going to really make our business reach its potential. And I'd be telling everyone about what I what I'd seen from you, whether I'd tell you exactly how I felt about it and how much I would keep I'd keep you hungry. But But I love that. I absolutely love that. It's a beautiful example. What was the what was the next big the next big bet that you took in your career,

45:44David De Paula:David? You mean the what I want to do next, right? Well,

45:51Richard Washington:Well, yeah, it doesn't have to be chronologically necessarily, but yeah, you didn't stop there. So, after the Cloud, how did I mean, how did the CloudBee story conclude? We haven't finished that story yet.

46:03David De Paula:No. I did conclude because I had to go back to Europe for personal reasons and and I mean there was no more jobs for me in Europe I mean, because there was already a sales leader and and I think after four years I think it was also a good time to do to do something else.

46:20Richard Washington:What did you want to do next?

46:24David De Paula:Same, of course. Building building organizations, building teams. I mean that's what I that's what I like. So that's what I'm I mean I'm doing today with Liquibase. if tomorrow I mean I'm I'm in a position where I mean I I want to do something else, it will still be the same. Because I think this is where my value is. This is I think I have the the recipe for that. And yeah, that that's really what what I like.

46:57Tolu Adebekun:What you know you said you have you've got the recipe for it what do you think are those key ingredients in that recipe that you've got

47:06David De Paula:That's a good question because the recipe I know I said I have the recipe, but the recipe might be different depending on the on on on the on the companies. But I think there's some basics here. I think one basic is always understand where where the company had its first success, understand why, really the why, and from there having a very clear vision about the what what is the what is your market, I mean, what is your ICP. and then be very focused on the ICP. I think at a very high level, I think that's the the the the the main yeah the the priority is really to to to understand your ICP and focus on your ICP. That would be the first advice I would give here. Maybe another one is obviously, usually these companies are founder led sales company. And what you don't want to do is to kill that passion from the founders. So you really you don't want to replace that you just want to re replicate that and what I what I saw that is I saw many companies trying to To replace that by something more structured. I don't think it's the right approach I think the right approach is not to replace but to replicate what the founder is doing

48:31Richard Washington:What is it you notice that founders are doing that works so well, that magic, that you try and harness this and then you know translate into something that's a bit more scalable? What are the patterns that you see around the magic of founders?

48:49David De Paula:Passion is one, for sure. Passion is one. I mean, they're very passionate about what they do. They are very... usually they these are people that experienced the problem themselves in their previous [clears throat] role. U That's what I'm seeing a lot. And yeah, that's probably the two thing. They're passionate and they understand the problem because they have experienced the problem by themselves.

49:13Richard Washington:And what are some of the frustrations they've got? So they've got all this passion, they're solving problems that they believe in. They've got customers on board, they've bought a team on board, but they're getting to a point where they do need someone like you and they need other people

49:28David De Paula:Because they feel they can't scale. Yeah. because they feel they can't scale I mean the other day I was on a conference I was talking with one of them actually a CEO and that's exactly what he was telling me. I mean is they had their first success they They have like a crazy like 90 % conversion rate on POC the guy was telling me which is really really nice So it means that there's a clear product market fit It means they really they're really solving a problem for sure. Yeah. But now what he sees as a limit, as a blocker for his company is him. I mean he really sees himself as the the limit of his company because he can't be anywhere at the same time everywhere at the same time. And that's why he needs someone like, I mean it could be someone like me to help him being everywhere to some extent or having people like him everywhere. Which is not possible, but still there's there's some there's still things you can do here to really making sure that you can convey that passion, you can convey the story behind, you can. so there's there's still a lot of things you can do to replicate that that success the founders usually have.

50:39Richard Washington:Yeah, I loved that. I love that. Cause I think there is so much founder magic. Obviously I'm building a business myself. So it's the first time, the closest I've ever been to a founder and I've been a the right hand of an incredible CEO before. I was part of like a team of entrepreneurs. But until you're really in that seat, it's really hard to understand what it's like to try and do all those things and realize when you're starting to get to the point when you are the bit of a, you are a bit of a blocker. One of the things that I've heard people talking about a lot, and it's certainly something that I'm doing consistently and trying to do better is really understanding the value that we offer to our customers. So for example, our marketing material is just our customer's language. We're not trying to be clever. We just tell people what customers have told us and it seems to resonate really well. And I'm wondering what are some of the things that you've found works really well to understand what you're doing really well for customers, that you can turn into something that will go to market success much more scalable.

51:42David De Paula:Yeah, so first thing I mean first thing is really pick the brain of the founder and there's different ways to do that. I mean first is obviously to discuss with the founder really understand what is in his brain, what is his vision. But I think what I found the most useful here is to go on customers calls meetings with the founder because this is really when I started to understand. I mean if I if I think about Magilin for instance, because Magilin was that case. I mean, it was the CEO was a technical person, the founder, he had the vision. So the first thing I did is I almost took him like my SE, you know, it was like almost like my AC for a certain period of time, like my solution engineer. I mean, a good a good one for sure. and And just having him to talk all the all the details of the solution to the customer and I think this is what really helped me understanding what is the value here. And and I was sure that the person would ask the right questions. Also because he had the credibility and the expertise, customers were really open to him. And and it was a way really to to learn very, very quickly about, for me, about the customers, about the problem we're we're solving. and And then from there to really assess what are the other companies that would benefit from the same same solution.

53:13Richard Washington:Yeah, that's genius. It reminds me, Tolo, of the conversation we just had with Amit Stark, who is at Splunk and BMC, in an international sales leader. And he was talking about how he tells his team, I'm not your manager, I'm a resource for you. And I think if you can like make yourself a resource for people and they can like lean on your expertise, it's the best way to possibly get people to become resourceful. because they go, well, I can leverage the power, this like super power that we have within our business, which is the founder, maybe you, to actually go and make much more impact with customers. I think it's a beautiful example.

53:50David De Paula:Yeah, I fully agree. And I it's funny because I say exactly the same to my teams. I'm a resource for you. I say that all the time. So that that resonates very well with me.

53:58Richard Washington:There you go. We've we've noticed a pattern, Tolo, in the greatest leaders. They are reading their resources for their teams. Their resources for their teams. Well, I'm I'm I'm really curious to ask David, because obviously we talked a lot about success stories. And I know that a career isn't just a straight line and that there are some challenging things. What Can you give us an example of a a big challenge that you had to overcome in your career? A difficult moment. that has helped shape the leader that we see here today.

54:33David De Paula:Yeah, sure. Yeah, I can I can talk about an experience I had with a company called RoboVision. so Robbo vision was, a I mean, he's a vision AI company. And basically the the company had had its first success, like one or two very good customers, and then they raised a lot of money, something like 150 plus million, with the idea to expand very quickly, I mean, the sales. and and they hired me as the Chief Commercial Officer. And and what I what I found when I joined the company is, I joined the company like through half year and the company was not even at 10 % of its annual goals. I mean, the one that were set by the VCs. And and very quickly, I mean, that experience was all about trying to explain to VCs what we were doing. rather than focusing on on on on on the actual sales, on the actual team. and and and the and to the point where... Yeah, and the other thing I want to mention here is the product was not fully ready as well, which is another another thing. And so basically the company was not set for success when I joined. So obviously because it was not set for success, the company failed. At least the company failed the year I was there and and to the point where the VCs decided to reshape the company, refocus on the product, the company would go from 50 to 100 people in less than a year, came back to 50 being a 50 people company and and starting to rebuild the company from from the ground. And that was I mean that was a tough experience because it was my first... experience as a as a chief commercial officer, being part of the C-suite and all the discussions I had were about problems, husk not hitting our numbers, trying to justify the Y to our VCs. so but it was at the end of the day, it was a tough but great experience for me because it also taught me a lot about VCs interaction, which was probably one of my first experience where I had to manage VC's expectations as well in a very very complex situation.

57:02Tolu Adebekun:What do you do differently now because of that experience?

57:07David De Paula:Probably I would ask more questions during the interview process. That's one thing. That's probably one thing. and and and the second thing is rather than trying to... I think what I tried to do with I mean the rest of the executive team was we were still trying to convince our investors that we could do it. rather than, and for a certain period of time, rather than being very upfront and say look, this is not realistic, this is what we can can we, can we agree on something different? And And that's something I should have done probably very very very early in the process when I realized that there was no way we could do our numbers. And and this is this was not our strategy, I mean our strategy for a certain period of time was to kind of hide the truth. to the investors which obviously was not the right strategy in the end because the company lost time also that's the other thing at the end of the day i think the company lost time as well

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58:44Tolu Adebekun:So, David, our closing tradition is tick fire questions. So are you ready to do them?

58:52David De Paula:Okay, sure. Let's go.

58:54Tolu Adebekun:If you started your own podcast tomorrow, who would you pick as your first guest and they can be dead or alive?

59:02David De Paula:My daughter.

59:05Tolu Adebekun:Very topical, very good, very good. That's a little foreshadowing for what my

59:08David De Paula:To get that podcast Yeah. Experience sharing experience between the new generation and the older generation.

59:17Tolu Adebekun:Very good, very good. When you think about the impact of AI, what are you most excited about and what are you most cautious about?

59:25David De Paula:I mean, exciting, it's obviously about the productivity. I mean, the AI really allows us to be much, much more effective when engaging with customers in many ways. So that's the most exciting part. I think that where I would be a little bit more cautious is some company think they can replace humans by AI, even in sales. And and I really don't believe in that. I think at the end of the day, it's a human buying to a human. and and I will not change. And and I think that's that's a pattern I see within some companies and and I would be very cautious with that.

1:00:04Richard Washington:I want to double click on that one, Tyler, quickly. So I'm really interested in this because it is true. You know, we see the large companies now laying off lots of people, Oracle, for example, you know investing, not just to replace people, but we want to invest this money into AI infrastructure. So there's this is the shift that we're seeing in the market at the moment. And then all these tools promise to do the work of all of these people. What do you see as the role of humans? in the modern AI I world of sales. I

1:00:39David De Paula:Think humans are still the key and they they must be powered by AI. I mean, AI is just the... humans must be powered by AI, but at the end of the day, it's it's still human interaction. Like, to give you an example, I mean, I know many companies that completely get rid of their BDR teams, saying, oh this role can be fully automated. So no no no no need for BDRs anymore. and And I think it's a big mistake. and and But I think BDR that are powered by AI, that know how to use AI tools, that's the way to go. Because it for sure, it's it's it's a lever of efficiency. and and but yeah, that's that's that's my observation right now. Yeah, for sure. And that's a kind of this...

1:01:30Richard Washington:Yeah, for sure. Sorry, carry on.

1:01:34David De Paula:And I said that's exactly the kind of discussion actually I'm having when I mentioned before with my daughter. I mean, the AI part is a big part of our discussions today. I mean how AI impact our job or when I'm pushing her to learn more about AI, to learn more about the different AI tools, to learn. That's typically the type of discussions we have today.

1:01:55Tolu Adebekun:Yeah.

1:01:55Richard Washington:One more quick side quest question, if you don't mind. So, so, So let's say there are managers here with young salespeople in their team or parents with people who want to get into tech, or there is just young people listening to this, wanting to have a great career. What's some of that advice that you're giving to young people like your daughter about where they should be focusing now to be well positioned to have a great career in technology?

1:02:26David De Paula:One thing is be curious, I mean always be curious, always learn. It will not stop, so you need to learn constantly, then it's not because you're up to date today that you will be tomorrow. So that's the first advice, always keep learning. And second thing is focus on your network. and that That would be the second piece of advice because at the end of the day, network is everything. I mean if I look at my career, u all the jobs I found almost was through my network. All the I mean all the customers I've prospected at the end of the day, if I had traction, it was through my network as well. So I think network is is the is at the at the edge of AI. Network is a big thing still.

1:03:15Richard Washington:Yeah, hard to disagree with that. Yeah, absolutely true.

1:03:19Tolu Adebekun:And there's there's also something interesting about what you said earlier, because you used two different words. You said, you know, AI can make you more efficient, but you also said about being effective, which are two slightly different things, right? Because efficiency is how quickly can I do something, but effectiveness is am I doing the right thing? Because you can be really efficient in sending out spam, but that doesn't make you effective. And I think part of the skill in this AI world is understanding the nuance between the two and help AI helping you to be both.

1:03:48David De Paula:Yeah, I definitely think it help can help you with both, for sure. if Yeah, It helps you with both if if you use it properly. Because being more efficient is easy, effective is is a little bit more complex, I think. And and this is also where humans are very important. M

1:04:12Tolu Adebekun:When you're coaching new leaders, what's one piece of advice that you always share?

1:04:19David De Paula:Come with me whenever you need. I mean, I'm a resource for you. I mean, it comes back to what you said before. That's the first thing I always say. I'm I'm here. I'm a resource for you. We hired you because you know your job. So I won't tell you what to do, but I'm here as a resource for you. Love that. Love that.

1:04:36Tolu Adebekun:What's a piece of feedback that you personally received that made the biggest impact on how you think?

1:04:44David De Paula:Probably it was, if we come back to that NLP discussion, it was the feedback I received from one of my NLP training, like, yeah, we all have our own filters and we all see our own world and and and making sure we see the things the same way is is is a difficult thing. and And it requires a lot of efforts.

1:05:11Tolu Adebekun:What's a book that you would add to a library for our listeners?

1:05:17David De Paula:Well, I think it will be very... I think the Probably the John Mcmahon book about the the sales leader. That would be the one because that's that's still our I think the the Bible in our industry. Yeah,

1:05:36Richard Washington:It's a qualification question of a lot of the VP of sales roles that I work on is, like, have you read the qualified sales leader? I think we need I think we need to get him on the podcast.

1:05:48David De Paula:Yeah. and this is one, I mean, I'm I mean almost every time I joined a company in that role, I mean, that's the first like present I give to my team that book. If they haven't read it, they they must read it. [clears throat]

1:06:00Tolu Adebekun:What's one thought you would like to leave our listeners with today? that

1:06:05David De Paula:Sales is a great journey that I really encourages young people to go in sales and especially go in tech sales because it's it's it's it's fun, really it's fun and there there's a there's a way to to make a great career out of it in all all aspects. To meet great people, to make good money. So yeah, I would really encourage young people to to embrace that career.

1:06:37Tolu Adebekun:Amazing. David, thank you so much for for being on the podcast and sharing your journey. This has been a great conversation. Thank you.

1:06:44David De Paula:Yeah, my pleasure. It was a great discussion. Thank you.

1:06:47Richard Washington:Absolutely. Everyone else

1:06:47We'll see you on the next episode. Thanks so much for joining us for the What Makes You Tick podcast. I hope you enjoyed listening as much as I enjoyed having the conversation. Yeah, there's so much value in hearing other people's career stories. And if you're someone focused on growing in your own career, check out our Growth Magnet newsletter on LinkedIn. We'll put a link in the show notes. And we

1:07:08Richard Washington:Will see you on the next episode.